Being True to Yourself inside Tricky Relationships with KC Davis
We have a returning guest today!
KC Davis is a Licensed Professional Counselor, author, speaker, the creator of the mental health platform, Struggle Care, AND the author of the brand new book, out today... Who Deserves your Love (How to Create Boundaries to Start, Strengthen, or End any Relationship).
In our conversation, we discuss the problems within the traditional self-help industry and the parallels of mom guilt and our effect on the people and the relationships we love.
The heart of our conversation centered around having clarity in our decision making using her "relationship decision tree" and finding more creative ways to sustain relationships rather than the pendulum swings between being a complete doormat and cutting off contact completely.
So if you need more skill building around healthy boundary setting, self-love and what it looks like to be a "good person" in your relationships, let's be honest, this episode is for all of us.
IN THIS EPISODE, WE COVERED...
- Why shame isn't a sustainable motivator
- How to create the "Plinko board" our relationships flow within while remaining in integrity
- The truth behind "if they wanted to, they would"
DON'T MISS-
- A counterintuitive (yet MORE effective) way to spend quality time
// MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE //
// CONNECT WITH KC DAVIS //
Who Deserves your Love (How to Create Boundaries to Start, Strengthen, or End any Relationship) Book — KC Davis
Website: www.strugglecare.com
Instagram: @strugglecare
TikTok: @domesticblisters
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TRANSCRIPT
KC Davis 0:00
When we talk about engaging or disengaging in a relationship, we don't mean 'do I stay and do nothing?', or 'do I leave and cut off completely?' What we mean in general is that stay or engage means I'm going to stay in this relationship, and I'm going to enact some boundaries. Disengage is a huge umbrella. It might mean end the relationship and completely cut off, or it could mean I'm still in this relationship, but I'm putting some space, whether that's physical space, whether that's emotional space, it's using boundaries to create space and kind of disengage.
Danielle Bettmann 0:40
Ever feel like you suck at this job? Motherhood, I mean. Have too much anxiety, not enough patience? Too much yelling, not enough play? There's no manual, no village, no guarantees. The stakes are high. We want so badly to get it right, but this is survival mode. We're just trying to make it to bedtime. So if you're full of mom guilt, your temper scares you, you feel like you're screwing everything up, and you're afraid to admit any of those things out loud - this podcast is for you. This is Failing Motherhood. I'm Danielle Bettmann, and each week we'll chat with a mom ready to be real, showing her insecurities, her fears, her failures, and her wins. We do not have it all figured out. That's not the goal. The goal is to remind you, you are the mom your kids need. They need what you have. You are good enough, and you're not alone. I hope you pop in earbuds, somehow sneak away, and get ready to hear some hope from the trenches. You belong here, friend, we're so glad you're here.
Danielle Bettmann 1:47
Hey, it's Danielle. We have a returning guest today. KC Davis is a Licensed Professional Counselor, author, speaker, and the creator of the mental health platform, Struggle Care. KC's compassionate and practical approach to self and home care for those dealing with mental health, physical illness and hard seasons of life has drawn over a million followers on TikTok, her book How to Keep House While Drowning, is currently an Amazon best seller, and her new book, Who Deserves Your Love: how to create boundaries to start, strengthen or end any relationship, comes out today. KC is well known online for concepts such as closing duties, talking about how care tasks are morally neutral, being a good enough mom, and finding motivation through self-compassion. In our conversation today, we talk about why shame isn't a sustainable motivator, and the problems within the traditional self-help industry, while discussing the parallels of mom guilt and our effect on the people and the relationships we love, which led to her new book. We highlighted important reminders regarding quality time with our kids. The heart of our conversation centered around establishing our value system for all relationships, whether that's romantic, platonic, or required, that allows us to create the Plinko board. Our relationships flow within while remaining within integrity and having clarity in our decision making, finding more creative ways to sustain relationships rather than the pendulum swings between being a complete doormat and cutting off contact completely. KC shares her thoughts on shoulds on the concept of, if he wanted to, he would, and the nuance needed in all our relationships. So if you need more skill building around healthy boundary setting, self-love love and what it looks like to be a "good person" in your relationships, let's be honest, this episode is for all of us. So let's dive in.
Danielle Bettmann 4:07
Welcome to Failing Motherhood. My name is Danielle Bettmann, and on today's episode, I am joined again by KC Davis. Thank you, KC, so much for being here. I first had you here in 2021, which feels like 100 years ago. So it was an episode called 'Being a Good Enough Mom', and I'm happy to report that it has been one of the number three most listened to episodes of Failing Motherhood history, out of like almost 200 episodes. So clearly it struck a chord, which is really cool. So, for those that want to scroll back, that didn't catch it the first time, it's episode 46, but I'm guessing there's a totally different group of listeners this time than caught us the first time. So would you just do us the honors of a quick intro? Who are you? What are you all about? Who's in your family?
KC Davis 4:56
So I'm KC Davis. I'm a Licensed Professional Counselor and a mom of two. They're now five and seven, and I'm an author. I wrote two books. I wrote a book called 'How to Keep House While Drowning', and another one that comes out today actually called 'Who Deserves Your Love: how to create the boundaries you need to start strengthening, or end any relationship'. And I make content online. I have a big platform on TikTok and, yeah, I mean, I did a TED talk. I just kind of create content about this intersection of mental health and living life. I mean, my angle is really having self-compassion as your guiding force, and then creating practical tips that are realistic for our lives.
Danielle Bettmann 5:42
Yeah, and it's so critical, I feel like it is so aligned with the work that I do with parents, because it is all around better understanding and having compassion for yourself, having compassion for your kids, just lowering the bar overall so that we can even surpass it some days, and that's great, but we enjoy and deserve great relationships with our kids too, and sometimes there's just a lot in our way that we didn't even ask for or choose that we have to kind of unlearn and break down as we become better parents, and nothing's more worthy of doing that work on ourselves, but we often fall into that, you know, self help rabbit hole, and I feel like your work is almost the antithesis of that. Would you agree? Like, how do you define the difference between traditional self-help and your self-help?
KC Davis 6:34
Yeah, I think when we look at, especially self-help that is geared towards women, we see a lot of sort of individualistic approaches. So most things can be fixed by just believing in yourself, manifesting good vibes, picking yourself up by the bootstraps, and sometimes this is, you know, it's like best case - it's kind of fluffy, and it may be some people feel inspired in the moment, and that's okay. I think worst case, we get some messaging that can be really harmful to women, especially with this belief that maybe what we need is someone to like, I always sort of reference like 'Girl, Wash Your Face', was kind of a cultural phenomenon, but it spoke to a lot of self help that had this undercurrent of, girl just have some self respect. And it did feel in the moment, I think, like, oh, someone's lighting a fire, like you're right. I need to do better. I need to push, I need to challenge myself. But what I found, you know, both personally and professionally, whether it's your relationships or whether it's your diet or exercise or cleaning your house or staying organized. I think we all sort of relate to this cycle where we find some book or some influencer or someone that really we feel like jazzed up. You know, I still remember getting like the home edit book, right? Or being really into, I love, actually, really love Marie Kondo. But just like, my personality was like, I'm gonna change everything now. And it feels really good for a while, because you're like, yes, I'm nailing it. I'm gonna wake up and run a mile, and then I'm gonna stop eating carbs, and then I'm gonna go to therapy, and it's like, oh, and I'm gonna organize everything. And then, I mean, the reality is, most of us have real barriers in our lives that make things difficult, that make time short and energy short, and it's not just like what's standing in the way of me and this like "put togetherlife", is not just me thinking good thoughts. So I can feel propelled to make a lot of changes and do a lot of action, but typically, speaking, you know, we kind of fall off within a few weeks or months, and then we feel ashamed. We feel like, okay, I've screwed it up. I didn't have enough willpower, I didn't have enough discipline. I saw a tweet one time, my favorite tweet of all time, that said, "all of my plans on how I'm going to change my life revolve around me waking up a different person tomorrow. " So then we often feel a lot of shame, and because we're confronted with who we really are, and then, you know, we feel a little shame, and then sometimes we respond to that by kind of numbing out or maybe not doing enough or under functioning, until we kind of come along to the next thing that makes us feel like a fire's lit, and then we go back. And so it's kind of this, like a productivity push and then a crash.
Danielle Bettmann 9:28
Like a binge almost.
KC Davis 9:30
Yeah, it is kind of like a binge-restrict cycle, yeah? And we're at war with ourselves, especially with the moral judgments of what we're behaving like when we are walking every morning and eating really well, and, you know, doing all these things, and always, you know, we feel like, okay, I'm good. I'm good enough. And when we're on social media too much and not feeling like we're being productive, when we're screaming at our kids, then it's okay, I'm a piece of junk. Right? I'm failing. I'm broken. And my hope is that the books that I make and the content I create is about getting out of that cycle altogether.
Danielle Bettmann 10:10
Yeah, which is the long-term healthiest approach and most sustainable, and because it is a marathon, we're not sprinting today and then waking up and sprinting again tomorrow. We're knee deep in a marathon trying to find some sort of sustainable, long term motivator and change that makes us feel worthy, makes us feel like we deserve that work and that it is rewarding in some way, and we don't get that from like, these short term quick hits of like, I just deep cleaned my whole pantry or in my fridge, but I finally now earned rest.
KC Davis 10:51
Right. Yeah, and I remember, like, telling my therapist one time when I was struggling with some postpartum depression, like I feel so bad because I feel like I'm not engaging my kids enough like I'm not paying enough attention because I'm just so overwhelmed that all I want to do is check out. You know, all I want to do is look at my phone or, you know, pay attention to something else. And what would happen is, like, I would feel so guilty about it and so ashamed of it that I'd be like, tomorrow, no phone tomorrow. When my kids and I wake up, we're gonna spend two hours playing and then, you know, no screens, and then, like, I wouldn't be able to do it. And I remember my therapist when I told her, like, I think I just need a more reasonable goal, instead of no phone tomorrow. Tomorrow, I want to spend an hour sitting down just engaging with my kids. And, I mean, I was in these throes of postpartum depression at this time, and I remember her being like, yeah, I think you need to walk that down a little. And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, I mean, let's not start with an hour. And I was like, Oh, I thought I was doing, like, really the bare minimum by doing an hour. She was like, Can you just do like, 10 minutes? I was like, what? But the truth is, is that she wanted me to start somewhere that was gonna be more sustainable moving forward. Because what a lot of us do, and I talk to parents about this a lot, is particularly with like looking at our phone too much, we find like, okay, I'm too checked out. And so the answer is, I need to dial in hard, push myself, and then you find yourself like, doing things with your kids and not enjoying it, and just kind of bare-knuckling, like do it, just do it. And what I found, though, is that when we find ourselves checking out too much, instead of saying, This is a sign I'm not engaging enough, it's actually a sign that you are kind of burnt out, like you're actually not getting enough time to check out. And so instead of doing this thing where we're going to half pay attention and a half look at our phone, where we're like, always paying only 30% attention, and we feel really guilty about it, and our kids don't really enjoy it, what if we gave ourselves permission, like, radical permission, to look at our phones and have that time, and then decide, and now I'm going to be engaged, like, let's engage maybe little bit less than we're trying to, but with 100% attention, and then allow ourselves to sit down and play for 30 minutes or an hour, and then go, okay, Mommy's gonna go look at her phone now and go do that for 30 minutes, right? Like it's this kind of counterintuitive, like, if you were getting enough time to pour into yourself, you would have more energy and engagement to show up for your kids. And so I think that's true of everything. Like, when we're not doing enough, quote, unquote, we feel like the answer is to push harder and do more, instead of taking a moment to go what's underneath me, quote, unquote, not doing enough, because a lot of times it's a lack of time, a lack of resources, a lot of stressors, maybe some burnout, maybe some mental health stuff. And if we don't get some skills to deal with those things, we're just gonna stay stuck in this cycle of like, push, push, push, push, push. Okay. Retreat, numb, retreat, numb, retreat, numb, push, push, push, push, push. And so I talked a lot about that with like, housekeeping and taking care of ourselves, and then I just kind of had this idea of what would it look like to apply that to relationships, because I think that there's a lot of shame around being someone who struggles with your relationship or with your marriage or with your family or with your friends, and I just find that like, moralizing messaging is not very helpful when we're trying to learn and grow. Like, hey, you're lazy if you're not taking care of your house, like, maybe that gets you up today, but that's not going to get you up every day. Like, that's going to create a lot of shame, and it's going to create a lot of like, a more strong desire to numb out. And I kind of wanted to do the same thing with relationships. Like, what would it look like to work on your marriage, or work on your relationship with your sister, or whatever? Or your mother in law, without feeling like when I screw it up or when I make mistakes, I'm doing wrong and bad, but still having a sense of, I have a responsibility to work on this, like I don't just get to go, ugh, whatever. It's good enough. I'm hurting people or whatever, right? So that was kind of the vision.
Danielle Bettmann 15:20
Yeah, oh my gosh. I love this conversation so much because it ties back to several things. Because I've heard you say laziness doesn't exist, but exhaustion does, where there is very real you have a whole list of limits to your capacity that are facts that you know do truly cut you off at the knees, way beyond your best intentions, and like all the things that you wake up the next morning promising your kids and yourself and everybody that you're going to do, you described so well what led us to connect and create the special time cards, which wasn't even on my list to talk about. I don't know why, but like, you just basically launched that loft of that softball perfectly, because 10 good minutes is so much better than three half ass hours of sitting next to your kids parallel, playing while your mind is elsewhere, because they are so much more satisfied with your eye contact and you doing something with them that they realize you want to be there, rather than that energy of like I would rather be anywhere else. I would rather be doing the dishes and vacuuming and making dinner than sitting here wanting to punch my eyes out with this GI Joe figure, toy, I don't know what I'm saying, but you know exactly what I'm saying, and you have talked about that on your channel, and so I'll add the link to those. But will you just describe where that kind of came from?
KC Davis 16:44
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of this idea where, you know, if we could put this time aside every day and say, Hey kids, like, what do you want to do? But what's so great about it is, like, when I have these cards with little activities in them, I can go through them and pick out the ones that I would also like, either tolerate, or enjoy. So I'm not like a big pretend play person, but like, I love to do a craft. I love to take a walk. Last night, what my kids wanted to do was do a treasure hunt where, like, we decorated a box and then I filled the box with some things, like a couple of quarters and, like, some of their toys. And then did these clues where it's like, you go to the living room, you look for the clue. The clue tells you to go to the bedroom. You go to the bedroom, right? And they loved it. And we did that for like, a couple of rounds, right? Like, it's so much easier for me to show up and be like, super excited and engaged in that activity than if it was like, let's sit down and play Barbies, which I'm not saying, like, okay, never play Barbies. But it's really neat to be able to go through the special time cards and to have a little stack of like, you know what? I feel like I could show up 100% for any of these activities right now and then just spread them out and have your kid feel that moment of I get to choose. Here are the choices, and whatever we choose like, Mom's gonna do that with me. I just think it's such a great tool and such a great approach of kind of like structuring that time so that our kids feel connected, but it's also about boundaries, like, I don't want my kids to feel like their mom ignores them, but at the same time, I don't want my kids to grow up thinking that, like it's normal to expect that someone's going to be at your beck and call all the time. Like, once we've moved past the infant stage and that really small toddler stage, it's time to not only teach - you're so important to me and I want to be with you, but also, I am a separate person than you, and sometimes I need privacy, or sometimes I need a moment. And so I think giving that structure where kids understand like, hey, right now is a time that Mommy's working on something, or Mommy is taking a break, or Mommy is doing whatever, and then being like, hey, right now is the time that I am here, totally engaged. Let's do it, and that creates a real sense of safety for kids and a real sense of structure. If you're a mom who has to work two jobs and you have one day off, and in that one day, you need to get everything done and pay attention. It feels at first like, well, if I only had an hour to do things with my kids every day, that wouldn't be enough. But the truth is, when you structure that as okay, it's Mommy hour, and they know what to expect and when to expect it, and they know that Mom's going to be 100% during that time, that is actually going to do so much more for their growth and development and attachment and sense of self than a kid whose mom is there all day, every day, but is only ever really giving 30% because she's so burnt out. And you know, the kid never really knows what to expect. And none of us is perfect at this, but we're doing our best. And I do think that moms, like when you mentioned earlier, this idea that you know, laziness doesn't exist, but exhaustion does, and pain does, all these things, when I talk about housekeeping, part of the reason of talking about it being morally neutral is that, like, okay, I'm exhausted. I'm too exhausted to do my laundry today. I am someone who deserves some clean clothes. So let's think about maybe how I could make laundry easier, how I could do it tomorrow, and it's a little bit easier to go, oh, it's okay to not do laundry today because I'm too exhausted, or because I'm whatever. I think what mothers understand just inherently is that when it comes to, I'm not wrong or broken for being exhausted, but my exhaustion affects the people around me, most importantly, my kids. Okay, yes, there's nothing morally wrong with experiencing chronic pain, but if I'm in so much pain that I can't make dinner or clean the house, if I live by myself, that's a whole different way of approaching it than if I'm going okay, but my kids are affected sometimes negatively by my ADHD, right? Like it's great. I love that I have ADHD. I love the passion it gives me. I love flitting from project to project. I love that I make rooms explode. But at the same time, my ADHD can have a negative impact on my children. And so I think as moms, we have this inherent understanding that I can learn to not beat myself up for, you know, these very human things I struggle with, but at the same time, I need them to change. I need to figure out what to do here. And that crux of, like, what do we do when our struggles are affecting other people is, I think, kind of why I, like, naturally moved as a mother from, like, okay, we've talked about housekeeping, and now we're gonna talk about relationships.
Danielle Bettmann 21:49
Yeah, that is such a perfect transition, and totally a connector. I think, between your two books, obviously you've been working on this messaging because that was seamless. But it totally makes sense. It makes sense in a huge way, because it's not just circumstances. Daily lives are not just a whole bunch of environments and a whole bunch of care tasks. It's always within these contexts of relationships and nature and nurture make up our day to day, and I think so much of our shame and our guilt is founded in the failures we see of how we are affecting others or what we should be doing for the people who depend on us that we are not. And if we care about those people, then that is going to bother us. And then what do we do with that feeling of being out of integrity? Because I thought I was going to be this, you know, craft-heavy, Pinterest, perfect mom. And now here I am lying on the couch, and I can't even, like, dredge up the energy to play cars. So like, what do I do with that disconnect?
KC Davis 22:52
Yeah, and I think also we can work and get to a place where we're like, okay, I know that. You know this behavior I have, or this tendency or this pattern, like comes from a place in me that's not a moral failing, it's either reasonable or it's understandable, or it's pain, or it's disability, or it's mental health, and we can get to a place where we're pretty good with being compassionate with ourselves. Okay, I'm gonna be accountable. I'll take steps to, you know, mitigate that pain. I'll take steps to make sure that the people in my life are getting what they need. I'll take steps to, you know, work on myself while being self-compassionate that like, it's okay if I struggle more than other people. But then we come to a place where we've gotten so good at being self-compassionate about our sort of, like, trauma or issues. But then, when we're in a relationship with someone else, and their trauma and their issues are creating behaviors in them that negatively impact us, sometimes we find ourselves going, okay, I'm not sure what to do now, like I've learned a lot about how these aren't morally bad things. They're just being human. And I can be self-compassionate, and I feel like I should also be self-compassionate to this other person who has these human struggles. Maybe they're not a bad person, but like, this is untenable, right? And so we kind of feel like, okay, I don't want to be a doormat, and just like, allow myself to exist in a really harmful relationship, or a relationship where harm is happening, but at the same time, I want to have empathy and be compassionate, and I don't want to just label people bad and throw them away. I think that's kind of like the natural next place we come to after we've gotten a little bit of a grip on having self-compassion for ourselves.
Danielle Bettmann 24:45
I totally see that, and I could find myself there a couple of years ago, for sure. And I see that so much with parenting. Because you know the name of your book is Who Deserves Your Love: How to create boundaries, to start, strengthen, and end any relationship. Well, you don't have a choice of not keep your kid in your house. You're gonna wake up with them tomorrow, and I think that's why parenting forces us to do a lot of this work, because we don't have a choice you truly are like in a relationship, that you have to find some sustainability in because the unpredictability, the roller coasters, the dictating moods of the house, the permissiveness or the being an emotional punching bag, you know, not being able to advocate for your own rights in a way that makes you feel not resentful. I mean, all of that comes, like, face forward, and you don't have a choice but to face it, and it's really hard. That's not what we expected, and it's not what you have to do with, like a tiny, little, cute baby.
KC Davis 25:54
I also think, like, that's true of I think other relationships too, like sometimes when you read books or list of content about like, having boundaries, for example, you'll find a lot of black and white thinking where someone will be like, Well, you shouldn't put up with that behavior. You should cut that person off. You should not be in a relationship. I'm not saying that there's like never a time when you should completely end a relationship, not saying that there are times when that's true, but I think that we've leaned really hard into this kind of cut off culture that is really, it's kind of like male coded almost, because the truth is, like you mentioned, as a mom, I can't cut my minor children off, but it's not just my minor children. Like, what if your mom or your dad is problematic, but they also are who watch your children for you when you go to work, and you can't afford childcare. That's also a relationship that I can't just cut off. What if you can't divorce your partner because of money reasons, or, you know, whatever the case may be, but even if you can, it's not like you can get them out of your life completely. They're still going to be co-parents. And so I think it's true. We go right to thinking about our kids as being, oh gosh, I can't get rid of these guys, right? But the truth is that's actually more true of most of our relationships, right? Our bosses, our next door neighbors, like, we can't just be like, oh, I don't like the way you act, so I'm completely done with you, most of the time. So we have to figure out a way. We don't want to be permissive, we don't want to be a doormat, but we also want to be a dictator, and we don't want to be abusive. And it just takes a lot more nuance to figure out. How do we work on relationships where that person may not be dedicated to working on it as much as you are or capable of working on it in the way that you are, and you have to find a way to exist in this relationship that protects you and allows you to still act according to your own values.
Danielle Bettmann 28:08
Yep, 100%. We already bought in, we're buying your book, but it's just so universal and foundational for being human.
Danielle Bettmann 28:24
Here's the deal. If your child is sensitive and smart yet loses it, is clingy or aggressive with you at home, they can go zero to 60 over the smallest things, like when they just don't get their way, nothing changes their mind, and they can't seem to get over it, and you know what you're doing isn't working, and siblings are starting to suffer. You could go to therapy yourself and take your child to therapy and follow all the experts and ask your family and friends for advice, take a course and set up a calm-down corner, and read all the parenting books, and still feel defeated. It's time. It's time to learn the missing pieces of invaluable insight about their temperament that unlocks compassion in you and understanding of how to work with the way they're wired. It's time to communicate in new ways, like a hostage negotiator, to get through to them and cultivate cooperation with confidence, and it's time to eliminate the behaviors that are working to gain control and attention at their root, rather than playing Whack a Mole, Calm and Confident, the Master Class is for you. There you will master the kind and firm approach your strong-willed child needs without crushing their spirit or walking on eggshells. In this free training, I share the four critical kind and firm scripts that unlock cooperation in every situation, how to eliminate behaviors at their root, and the path to solidifying the open and honest relationship that you want to have with your child down the road. So go to parentingwholeheartedly.com/confident to access this exclusive On Demand training immediately. That's parentingwholeheartedly.com/confident, that link will be in the show notes.
Danielle Bettmann 30:25
So if this is one of the required readings for being an adult, what are some of the mistakes that you see more often than not? What is like, the natural, the default, the instinct, the thing that we're like set up to kind of start doing or reacting to in relationships that we need to probably face or rethink?
KC Davis 30:47
I think most of us who have a desire to do right, to be a good person, you know, to be decent, there's kind of these two different pitfalls, and the first is giving too much, and the second is not giving enough, right? And that's true everywhere, because let's go back to housekeeping, right? You can make the mistake of not doing enough and kind of giving yourself an excuse to say, Oh, I'm not going to do anything. None of it matters. It's all okay. I'm going to just ignore it all, or you could give too much and be like, now I'm exhausted, and everything has to be perfect, right? And I think that kind of the human journey is trying to figure out, how do I develop a sense of self that has a decently accurate way to determine when I am need to push myself and I'm capable of more, and when I need to cut myself a break because I'm beginning to overextend. The reason that's so hard for so many of us is because we are typically kind of raised with this, like external locus of control, which means that I know that I'm being bad because everyone is telling me I'm being bad, or I know that I'm doing good because I'm being praised and approved. And that can obviously get tricky if you think about the implications of that, because people praise other people for being shitty all the time, and people do the right thing all the time and don't get praise, so I think we do that same thing in relationships, right? If you really care about someone, you always have that moment of like, I feel like this isn't fair to me, what's happening. But am I the drama? Like, is it me? Is it me, or is it them, like, and you really struggle with that, because you don't want to make either mistake. And so, you know, because we all have a friend that you see in relationships where you feel like they deserve better than the kind of behavior that they kind of believe they accept. I think all of us know someone that is really quick to cut someone off because they don't meet these, like, impossibly high standards. And so I think that those are kind of the two mistakes that we make, and people who have a modicum of self-awareness, typically, that's where we live, is between that, like, how do I get better at knowing which of these things is happening? And honestly, sometimes it's both things happening. And how do I figure out what's your stuff and what's my stuff, and then how do I work on my stuff? And then how do I know when the stuff you're working on, whether you're really trying, and what if you're doing your best, and it's still not enough, and I'm still being hurt? And you know, when is it too good to leave and when is it too bad to stay? And so I think that that's kind of the first part, the biggest, hardest thing,
Danielle Bettmann 33:42
So well illustrated. Because I think everybody just found themselves on that pendulum, for wherever you are today, you were probably on the other side yesterday, and it makes us feel a little crazy. I think that's why, on Reddit, there's that AITA like, "am I the asshole" thread, because we don't know. We don't know genuinely, and like, I need somebody's unbiased opinion to look into my relationship and help me understand what I am doing well. Where am I failing? Because I think it's too close to my face, and I can't see it straight anymore, and especially if you've been in a relationship with someone for 5, 10, 20 years, there's enmeshment, so it's so hard to have clarity. And when you're describing work, doing the work on yourself, that leads you to have self-compassion. I think with a lot of the woo, woo type suggestions, you get to a place where it looks like when I have self-worth, that I raise the bar for everyone around me, and I don't have self-worth if I put up with things that are below this bar.
KC Davis 34:46
Yes, I really dislike the moralizing that happens about relationship tips. It was a really big thing. So, one of the things I'm most proud of, this book never uses the word 'should' in the entire book. So there are so many messages about what makes you weak or strong or a coward, or, you know, about how you behave in a relationship, about what you accept, which almost always just comes down to continuing to blame women for the behavior of men. You know, if you have a man who treats you right, that's something you brag about. And if you see someone and their man doesn't treat them right, there's this pity when in reality, it's just a weird thing. It has way more to do with them. And regardless of whether it's, you know, a romantic relationship or a friend, there is a lot of feeling as though what you "put up with" is like a reflection of how much self respect you have, and of being embarrassed to have relationship problems, or being embarrassed that someone in your life is doing things that are hurtful or harmful to you, or that someone in your life won't change or can't change, or doesn't see that they need to change. We take that onto ourselves and feel embarrassed and don't want people to know about it, don't want to talk about it, don't want to get help for it.
Danielle Bettmann 36:07
It's kind of the if he wanted to, he would.
KC Davis 36:11
Yeah, which like any sort of pop psychology cliche that like, enters the zeitgeist, there's a kernel of truth in it. The over-generalization is what makes it so easy to pass around and talk about, and there's a kernel of truth there. But, you know, the bigger it gets, we typically see things get pushed under that umbrella that we want to go, Okay, hang on, let's have some nuance, right? I think a good example is I saw a TikTok the other day of this girl who was, like, I want to have really high standards. I want the relationship that I crave. And she had this whole big list, and there were things on there that I was like, hmm, okay, this girl has seen those videos of the boyfriends that make their girlfriends, like, Boo Baskets, like, went to Target and, like, made a little basket, brought it home. And I was like, Okay, are there men that do that? Yes, but sometimes those lists that I see women make, it makes me think, like, do you want to date a man, or do you want to date a sorority big sister? Because those are really specific traits, and I think it's really helpful for us when we are sort of "making our lists". I think it's really helpful to make sure that we're talking about values and qualities, not specific behaviors or personality types. Like, it's okay to have a personality type. Like, that's what I'm into, great. But there's a difference between, like, your non negotiables, like a man or a woman must be these things in order for me to feel reasonably secure in taking the chance of entering into a vulnerable relationship with them that, like, that's going to be safe and then you can have, I'm really into humor, or I'm really into, you know, this kind of guy, or this kind of guy, or guys that do x, y, z, but knowing that those are different, because otherwise, again, we kind of fall into that trap of, okay, someone told me I need to have high standards. But when do I know if my standards have become unreasonable, and I'm not expecting people to be superhuman now?
Danielle Bettmann 38:22
You just completely laid out the case for why it's critical to identify your own values, which I think is one of the things that you address in your book. But what are those values? Can you get even more specific?
KC Davis 38:36
In the book, I actually have this thing called a relationship decision tree where, like, you go through, and it has every question you need to determine, like, what to do with this relationship and part of that is talking about values, because there's these two questions that we ask ourselves when we're examining a relationship, and the first is when we talk about engaging or disengaging in a relationship, we don't mean do I stay and do nothing, or do I leave and cut off completely? What we mean in general is that stay or engage means I'm going to stay in this relationship, and I'm going to enact some boundaries. Disengage is a huge umbrella. It might mean end the relationship and completely cut off, or it could mean I'm still in this relationship, but I'm putting some space, whether that's physical space, whether that's emotional space, it's using boundaries to create space and kind of disengage. So I want to start by saying that, but there are two questions that we ask ourselves as we're going through that, and the first one is about values. Would staying in this relationship violate my values, and we start with that one? So I invite readers to make a list of values, and we start with, like my list, because there are five that I think are universal, that I invite everyone to use, and there are a couple that are specific. And so the first one is the care and protection of minor children. So it's like relationships that threaten the care and protection of minor children, mine especially. But really, like, that's a relationship where I would say, I am transgressing my values by remaining in a relationship with someone who puts my children at risk or who puts other children at risk. The second one is the care and protection of my physical and psychological safety. Physical safety is easier for us to understand. Psychological safety is a little bit more nuanced. Psychological safety specifically doesn't mean comfort. It doesn't mean there's never any harm or hurt. It specifically refers to a lack of malicious torment or a lack of behaviors, like behaviors that threaten your psychological safety, are things like I mentioned, like malicious torment. It's also where you know that if you ever say anything vulnerable, it will be used against you maliciously, straight up bullying, that kind of behavior. And then the other one is about my autonomy. So like not infringing upon my autonomy to where I'm going, who I'm having relationships with, what I'm doing with my money, you know, unless I am medically unable to make those decisions. That one's pretty straightforward, and then the other one is implicating me in a crime without my consent. So if I have a friend who shoplifts while we are together in a store, if my husband is cheating on our taxes, if I have a roommate dealing drugs from our apartment, like it would transgress my values to remain in those situations. And so that's another one. I think I might have actually used physical safety and psychological safety as two different ones, and then the couple that I use for my own is like, because I've been sober 20 years, I have the care and protection of my sobriety is a value. I don't need people to not drink around me ever, but there's a difference between that and someone who, like, presents a risk to my sobriety. So that one and then for me, I also have, like, the care of my elderly parents, like, if a person was ever trying to separate me from my parents or put me in a position where I could not care for my parents or things like that, that would go against my values. So we have those values, and we have those specifically as one of the questions that we ask first, so that we can look at a lot of things that when you get into the shoulds, the shoulds, the shoulds, that we can easily convince ourselves matter more than those values, and we do ask ourselves, you know, you probably have some values, and there's a difference between, I think one of the examples I use is like, you know, if I've been dating someone for six months and they have severe mental health problems and they experience a crisis, you know, my responsibility to that person is not the same as my responsibility to my spouse of 11 years if he were to suddenly have a severe mental health crisis. And what we do is we often make those decisions about us, like, am I a good person for helping, or am I a bad person for not helping? And we don't want to always drive that way, because that leads to a lot of muddy waters. It's more like, what are my responsibilities to this person? And can I carry out those responsibilities without compromising some of these very core values that always have to take precedence? And so you might when you're talking about, like, values against leaving a relationship, like you might have cultural values about caring for your elderly parents. You might have religious values about divorce. You might have values about you know this friend who has been with you through thick and thin, and now they're an inconvenient friend. But if you were to just peace out now, that would really transgress your values. But when we get into cultural or religious or moral sort of shoulds, it's very important that we understand that your moral obligation to survive is paramount, and that we are first asking ourselves if any of these values are being transgressed by staying here, before we think about whether or not it's right or wrong to leave.
Danielle Bettmann 44:35
You may not know this about me, but my husband is seven and a half years sober, and when I had a two and three year old, I chose to move out, and we sold our house, and I lived periodically alone, until he went to rehab, and then he came back to live with us, and things were a mess. They were a hot mess for a while. And I was in Ministries as a leader within a church at the time, and I desperately wish I had had your book at that time, because I felt really, really, really alone. I didn't have any family in town, which kind of helped me parse out how to help him, what I was responsible for, if we still loved each other, like, how much of this was him versus me? And it was the hardest time in my life, and I didn't know if I was a good person if I didn't support him through, like these really, really hard times, but he was spending all of my money on alcohol. He was not able to stay awake while watching our children. He had started to drive with them in the car while intoxicated. And thankfully, I found Al Anon, and it really helped me differentiate between what was morally implicating me and my decision making and what was very pragmatic about the situation. And I could see that he was a person I loved, who loved me, who was having a very hard time, and I was faced with making some very tough boundaries in order to find any sustainability in this relationship, and for me, it was my kids' safety was paramount. My safety was paramount. And of course, there's like a million coulda, woulda, shouldas about the situation, because we'll probably never own property again. You know, like, sure we could have maybe made some different decisions and, like, held a situation, but we didn't have those choices, and I did the best I could with the information I had at the time, but I think it was a very much like a very real life illustration of what it looks like to one of the things I just read off your website was like, you have to learn how to breathe underwater. You know, it's not just like getting to this end goal, which was his sobriety, and, like, living happily ever after. There were years where I had to figure out what to do in the meantime, while he was a separate person, and, like, figured out his stuff. And that for me as a young mom, working part time, not a lot of financial stability or independence, no family support, a lot of religious guilt, like it was, it was hard, and I think that I'm just sharing this as one example of kind of a more extreme situation. But I think all of us have probably had one relationship in our life where we're faced with a lot of nuance, not a lot of clarity, and trying to figure out what the best-case scenario is. What am I supposed to do in this relationship?
KC Davis 47:44
I think what you're mentioning is like one of the biggest pitfalls, which is, like, we want to be a good person, but we cannot allow how sympathetic we find someone else's struggles to be the only guiding factor of our decisions, because then it really becomes about, am I gonna sacrifice my children's health on the altar of me feeling like a good person But at the same time, like we don't want to make the opposite mistake of going well, if you have an addiction that you're bad and wrong and you're immoral. And so I'm done with you. I'm better than this. You never see the kids again, right? And then we torture ourselves with the what-ifs, but what if I kick them out, and that's what drives them to drink, or what if they get better and I've ended the relationship, right? And so I touch on that stuff too. Like, there's a whole chapter called, like, The Pitfall of Potential, and how do we deal with those questions, those what ifs, because it's hard, it's so hard, and I don't even think you have, like, an extreme example. Like, it's extreme in that, you know, it's very, very painful, and a lot is at stake. But it is certainly not extreme in the sense that, like, it's an outlier of a situation, like it is a very common and that's where all that comes to the forefront. I mean, you have to find your true north, and you have to sort through so much stuff and figure out, how am I going to start making decisions? And, you know, we think about boundaries as telling someone to do something or saying we're not going to let someone do something, and there's a lot of messaging about boundaries. But at the end of the day, what a boundary is, is just a clear understanding of where I end and you begin, and what things do I truly have agency over, and what things do I not have agency over, and having to, like you said, deal with the information we have today, not what I wish the information was, not what the information might be tomorrow, not what the information was seven years ago, the information today. Look at, you know what I have agency over, and make decisions based on that information and your values, and that will often give you enough light to see the next step. It's maddening, because you won't see more than one, right? There's no like, here's where we're gonna go, right?
Danielle Bettmann 50:05
We wish we had the whole path, yes.
KC Davis 50:07
It might be two steps forward and three steps back, not in terms of progress, but just in terms of, like, what you're doing. And it feels like, am I even going anywhere? But yeah. And I find people, especially if you're trying to get advice, like online, people are so dismissive about, kind of going back to what we were saying about, like, having some self-respect. Like, kick them out of there. But like, people are so dismissive about like, what it really means when you have spent years entwining your life with someone, and I just will never presume to say that I know what's best for someone else to do. You know, we can only talk about the best way to try and make decisions.
Danielle Bettmann 50:50
Which are the life skills that we'll need that I learned with that relationship, and then I had to turn around and do that with my parents, or with, you know, the community that I ended up leaving once I left that church, and for my parents, it was very pragmatic. It was no overnight, no vacations together, no. These are not conversation topics that I'm uncomfortable with you having with my kids, you know, things like that were conversations that I knew there was not going to be a I'm writing you off completely, but it was my values needed to be in place, and I needed to get clear about them and be convicted in them, so that I could create this sustainability in our relationship, so my kids can have some resemblance of, you know, a connection long term.
KC Davis 51:39
It takes a lot of creativity to be able to think about what those options are.
Danielle Bettmann 51:44
Yeah, I wish we had a menu.
KC Davis 51:47
Well, and that's the thing, though, it's like, it's so individualized and I try to give a lot of examples in the book, but you know, if you have, let's say that you have a girlfriend, and your parents are very much against, like, same sex marriages or whatever, and it feels like, okay, the decision is, like, cut them off, or, like, put up with their abusive language or whatever, when, in reality, there's so much gray area in between. There are so many mitigating factors. There are so many things. Like one person might decide, you know what, like, I don't want to cut my parents off, I will go to them to see them. I will not take my wife with me. I will stay in a hotel room so that if things get heated, I can leave and go back to that hotel room. Like, there are a lot of things that you can do. And what I find is that we will block ourselves off from the creativity it requires to think about those kinds of options if we remain primarily concerned with whether or not we're being a good person. And I'm not saying it's not important to act with integrity. I want everyone to act with integrity. But there's a difference between saying I want to act with integrity, and above all, I need to feel good about these random messages I've collected over my whole life that say what a good person is that I haven't even really examined to see if I believe, if I agree with that or not.
Danielle Bettmann 53:22
Well, and I feel like there have been some big lines in the sand that society has drawn for us that when we decide if we're on the left side or the right side of that line, then for it to morally belong on that side, it feels like you need to then cut off the other, any relationships we have with the other, and so then we're just jumping to these like, wild conclusions without the creativity in the meantime of like, what would it look like to continue that relationship while remaining within our values? And I think that we all have some of those gut checks coming up, where I have constantly, every couple of months, been like, okay, is this still a good line and boundaries for this relationship? Do we need to make any changes? Do I feel comfortable with what they're asking? You know, it always evolves. There's a new ask, there's a new situation that comes up. There's a new thing where I'm like, Oh, I don't know. I don't have, like, a principle for that. That's not established in my handbook, so it constantly kind of puts you into questioning, and some of that uncertainty again, and you have to, like, then realign with where you're at. And it's just hard. It's just hard. There's so much nuance.
KC Davis 54:36
Yeah, I mean, you know those, like arcade games where it's like a vertical peg board, and there's like pegs everywhere, and it drops like a ball, right? And then the ball bounces down, and then there are several different holes at the bottom. I find that what the difference is, you don't need to re-examine every single pass of a marble. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you look at, like, how is this ball going to fall? What should I do about this ball? What will be the result of this ball? Like, you can't control where that ball is going to go? Right? So it's not about that. It's about how you construct the pegboard that aligns with your values? And you might sometimes need to move some pegs, but you can't move the pegs because you want that ball to fall in a certain space, because you ultimately don't have control over that. We have to line the pegs according to our values, the information, our integrity, and then wherever that ball falls, we ultimately know that we have no control over where it falls, but we can lay our head on the pillow at night knowing, like we put those pegs in according to the best information we had and our values, and that's all we can do. And then I can approach situations because I have a framework for how to make decisions, as opposed to having to go with every single situation having this, like an existential crisis.
Danielle Bettmann 56:09
Yeah, which is what I want for my kids, right? If I'm really being honest with myself, because they're gonna find themselves in a bunch of different friendships, you know? And I want them to be able to have that system in place and know who they are, and know what's important to them, and know what values, you know, come to the forefront of their priorities, and then be able to check that with this friend who's shoplifting at the store or whatever. And I think that's going to make them more of a solid, like, I'm not, you know, having peer pressure to join in, but they're actually gonna be able to be like, is this serving me? Like, how are we gonna be able to manage this relationship? And I think that that's platonic, that's romantic, that's, you know, across the spectrum of relationships and the big picture of what we want for our kids. And in the same way, I think what we want to be able to instill in them, parenting wise, with like conflict management and problem solving, and ultimately, what we're trying to model is what we want them to be able to go do at a friend's house or on the recess playground, or like in these, all these other scenarios they're going to find themselves in because we're only going to have so much influence and so many times that we're there to walk them through it. So if we're honest with ourselves, it's that skill-building that maybe we weren't given as soon as we would have liked, that we're trying to do at the same time, and that forces us to learn it in real time.
KC Davis 57:38
Totally agree, and I think it tied the conversation up nicely, because if we parent according to just telling our kids what's good or bad or right or wrong, stealing is wrong. You're not allowed to hang out with that friend anymore, right? Premarital sex is wrong. You're not allowed to do that. Giving is right. You should always give. Then we create where like their driving system is, I need to be whatever my environment deems is a good person, because that's how I get love and approval, as opposed to let's talk about sex. Let's talk about stealing. Let's talk about these things. Let's talk about what that means. How do you feel when you're in that situation? What are the potential consequences of that situation? You know? How will you feel if some of those potentialities kind of come to fruition and giving our kids, like you said, that framework of making decisions according to, you know, their own integrity, as opposed to just sort of these black and white answers that you know they may or may not stick with once they become adults.
Danielle Bettmann 58:46
Yeah, yeah, because my kids are getting to middle school, middle school girls group chats, and I'm trying to be very intentional about how I help them manage those conversations when they're really mad at a friend, or a friend doesn't get back to them, or something. But one example of that is we had a conversation over the weekend about, like, hey, it's totally fine for them to play with a different group of friends, or for them to be busy, or, you know, whatever, and you deserve to have an answer either way, yes or no. Ghosting isn't cool. Yes, like that hurts your feelings and that makes you mad, and we could label that as them being a bad friend, but there's more to it than I want them to understand on that level of like, this is why, and this is what that looks like. But that takes me being able to kind of sort through it too in my own relationships. So totally need your book. Well, there's clearly so much we could talk about, and I do need to wrap up. So, how can listeners connect with your work and this new book?
KC Davis 59:48
The easiest way is my website, strugglecare.com you can get links to my books. You can get links to all of my social media. I'm @domesticblisters on TikTok. I'm @strugglecare on Instagram and Facebook and all my cool stuff is, that's a good jumping off point, is the website.
Danielle Bettmann 1:00:03
You're the most fun on TikTok. I feel like that's where you're really yourself.
KC Davis 1:00:06
Thank you. I know that's kind of where I let my freak flag fly.
Danielle Bettmann 1:00:09
Well, we need it. You're stirring up controversy that gets these good conversations going, and we love you for that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming back and taking morals out of another area of our lives so that we can really think strategically and be more intentional. And this was such a great conversation. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you.
Danielle Bettmann 1:00:35
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Failing Motherhood. Your kids are so lucky to have you. If you loved this episode, take a screenshot right now and share it in your Instagram stories and tag me. If you're loving the podcast, be sure that you've subscribed and leave a review so we can help more moms know they are not alone if they feel like they're failing motherhood daily, and if you're ready to transform your relationship with your strong willed child and invest in the support you need to make it happen, schedule your free consultation using the link in the show notes. I can't wait to meet you. Thanks for coming on this journey with me. I believe in you and I'm cheering you on.
